In The Context Of Game Design Skill Chains Are

Traditional progression (XP/Skill Trees) vs Open progression (Far Cry 6)

Thread starter Sky87
Start date Oct 15, 2021

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Been thinking about this while playing FC6. I vastly prefer the more traditional method of progression where you feel like you're actually building your character/items/weapons etc. I want something really good deep in that skill tree to look forward to instead of having to randomly track down a good skill in a chest that you could find 30 minutes into the game. If everything is unlocked from the start, hour 30 will feel the same as hour 2.

Another example is Guild Wars 2 which had very horizontal progression at launch, but since then it has become a bit more traditional with things to unlock in several different "XP trees".

Where does everyone else stand?

I would like the best of both worlds - don't make it possible to get an OP skill that trivializes the game from the beginning, but don't lock fun skills behind boring ones. Basically keep the talent/progression trees and make the better skills cost more and take more time/be harder to unlock, but remove the lines/requirements between them, unless one skill is a direct upgrade of another.

I like both systems, but prefer the traditional way of skill trees, makes it exciting to plan for a build.

Skill trees are boring as fuck majority of the time. I ESPECIALLY don't miss it from a game like Far Cry.

Last edited: Oct 15, 2021

95% of perks in skill trees are usually boring and useless.

Yeah, pretty done with standard generic skill-tree progression. We've been chasing this rabbit for years, feels very artificial and gamey. Time for a new interesting progression formula to pop-up.

Would love a progression system that's more engaging, like really needing to learn the world and it's rules to get anywhere, but open enough for experimentation. The world and it's simulation pushing back when you don't have the knowledge how to tackle certain situations. Inspired by Outer Wild or Breath of the Wild.

Skill trees can be ok if you start out with enough fun stuff and there's not lame shit to unlock on the way to the good stuff. God of War was boring as fuck for a good 6 or 7 hours because you have nothing at the beginning and the combat is super basic.

So I'd rather devs just make it so I can unlock cool shit right away, or not make so many of the skills really really really boring

It depends on the context of the game. Something like a linear and controlled experience in say a cRPG/JRPG definitely works well with a skill tree system but Far Cry 6 is an open world sandbox game that emphasizes player choice. So just letting the progression be tied to "perfecting how you wanna play" makes a lot more sense in that regard.

I think it depends on the game.

Having a horizontal progression with free changes can mean a lot of tweaking to get what you want and how you like it. Make everything fit just right and have try different combinations and strategies.
Having the more traditional style can be nice as you clearly work your way towards something. Seeing some of the cooler stuff later can be satisfying.

Overall I look for things that are easy to understand without over reliance on outside resources. I want something that is not overly time consuming to think about. I'd prefer if it isn't filled with small incremental upgrades like +5hp, +2 spd, +5 att, +15% evasion chains, if it is something like this I'd prefer if it was easy to read and fast to dive in and out of.

In games like an MMO. Character growth and progression can take a long time. Part of the frustration of a lot of MMOs for me is that the early stages of the MMO gameplay isn't fun and takes a lot of time. Once you unlock your full skill set and have all the toys to play with, the fun begins as you're fully equipped to deal with different situations. That said, MMOs tend to have a lot of mechanics so a slower progression can make sense as to not overload players. The issue then is that for some of us who has played through a lot of carries and have transferrable knowledge on gameplay this can be a slog.

If the gameplay is fun I'm not too fussy on what the progression is so long as I'm still having fun I guess.

I don't like hard grinds generally. I even sometimes cheat on PC to get around it. But honestly, that is a different type of fun specifically when I can't be bothered to do it the right way cause I lost interest in waiting for a skill to unlock.

When I feel the progression is fair and not daunting. I enjoy building and progressing a character. Having everything at the start takes the fun out of that.

I don't find it fun if you can easily pivot a character to a different class too. Or if you are able to mix classes and have skills from different classes.

I do love having variations of a specific class that is exclusive to it though.

Skill trees are boring as fuck majority of the time. I ESPECIALLY don't miss it from a game like Far Cry.

Yup.

Skill trees suck.

I don't like any system that results in human enemies (or animals, for that matter) becoming bullet sponges. There are few things more immersion-breaking.

Honestly I think it was Skyrim that was the downturn of skill trees for me. all the good shit were towards the end of the trees and made me realise how much of a grind it all was, especially across different abilities trying to make a mixed class. Because I ain't doing a second playthrough.

I liked the trees in Crosscode- the branches made things have just enough customisation while being able to completely ignore putting points into moves you don't move to favour the ones you did.

I don't like any system that results in human enemies (or animals, for that matter) becoming bullet sponges. There are few things more immersion-breaking.

Tell me about it. One of my biggest fears about Gotham Knights. Somehow the Arkham series had a nice XP upgrade series without it really affecting damage scaling.

"it depends" is a good answer here.

But I prefer traditional progression in most cases. Start with almost nothing and build and specialize your character into something great. It's very motivating to me.

I think it depends entirely on implementation.

In the case of FC6 specifically, it sucks. The progression didn't feel exciting or, I dunno, rewarding? The gear/skills I saw during my short time with the game were all exceedingly boring (all the DLC items included). It feels like they took the skills from the skill tree and just moved them to different pieces of gear, with nothing particularly meaningful done about the fact that skill tree skills are permanent whereas these aren't. At least do something unique with the system. Major set bonuses. Skills that have a considerable impact on your build, balanced with only being able to change gear in base or something. Stuff like that.

With honest-to-god RPGs I feel like all kinds of different progression systems can work, but with these relatively shallow open-world action/RPG-lite games like anything from Ubisoft, for example, I'd much rather have a skill tree to work through. Getting permanently stronger as you progress through the game feels good and it's nice to plan things out a bit.

It absolutely sucks in Far Cry 6... Some skills from previous games are now tied to gear it's so damn dumb. I don't wanna change my pants just so I can do a different takedown, hold my breath longer, sabotate alarms, or whatever. It feels like the game wants you to change gear constantly depending on the situation, but it just doesn't work, especially when you could unlock those skills permanently in previous Far Cry games. It's a huge step backwards.

Traditional XP/skill trees work well IF you think you're earning something worthwhile.

Spider-Man earns you practical skills that you can use all the time.

Avengers "earns" you the ability to press XYBAXXYBA to do a slightly different move that has zero impact on the combat.

It absolutely sucks in Far Cry 6... Some skills from previous games are now tied to gear it's so damn dumb. I don't wanna change my pants just so I can do a different takedown, hold my breath longer, sabotate alarms, or whatever. It feels like the game wants you to change gear constantly depending on the situation, but it just doesn't work, especially when you could unlock those skills permanently in previous Far Cry games. It's a huge step backwards.

My biggest issue with the game. Its awful. Also, if you're gonna do this, why not have loadout options to quick swap between sets? Baffling design decision here.

I think Far Cry should move more toward Fallout. Give me a progression tree that let's me build all kinds of wacky/fun builds.